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Predictor@home's response to rogue install

3/24/2007 3:00:34 AM

Keck_Komputers

176 posts

Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(United States) Modified By paul on 3/25/2007 3:11:00 AM)

I'm sure most of our multi-project members have seen the response from the administrators to the user "wate" and the flame fests that have started on the other project's boards about this.

I personally have had them as a backup project for a long time due to the lack of a screensaver where other protein projects do have one. After this I have decided to detach completely.

Background:

http://climateapps2.oucs.ox.ac.uk/cpdnboinc/forum_thread.php?id=5314 Original discovery.

http://boinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/dev/forum_thread.php?id=1571 BOINC board discussion thread.

BOINCing since 2002/12/8

3/24/2007 3:25:16 AM

Kinguni

2087 posts

Re: Preditor@home's response to rogue install
(Canada)

Thanks for the Predictor update! Another reason not to attach.

3/24/2007 9:28:34 PM

Xaak

1053 posts

Re: Preditor@home's response to rogue install
(United States)

This has me really burning. I haven't followed this issue much, but I can't imaging I'll want to support predictor in any way. Perhaps it's time to discuss removing our team name from the Predictor project?

Gary
You can't fix dead.

3/25/2007 4:30:01 AM

Keck_Komputers

176 posts

Re: Preditor@home's response to rogue install
(United States)

I may have been premature in posting on this subject.

Dr. B. has recieved a direct email from the moderator/staff at CPDN and is now investigating. A bit slow but at least he is waking up.

I still do not wish to provide any additional CPU time to them. However on the other hand I do not want to abandon my prior contribution or the prior contribution of the team.

BOINCing since 2002/12/8

3/25/2007 6:47:30 AM

McSummation

153 posts

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(N/A)

I know I'm dense at times, but (without reading all the posts in those threads) I didn't understand what got you guys so upset with CPDN?

James aka McSummation

3/25/2007 9:26:11 AM

Kinguni

2087 posts

Re: Preditor@home's response to rogue install
(Canada)

Keck_Komputers wrote

I may have been premature in posting on this subject.

Dr. B. has recieved a direct email from the moderator/staff at CPDN and is now investigating. A bit slow but at least he is waking up.

I still do not wish to provide any additional CPU time to them. However on the other hand I do not want to abandon my prior contribution or the prior contribution of the team.

I don't think you were premature, but doing anything else would have been. Predictor has not been worth paying attention to in a long time and I could never give it more support after they basically abandoned the project without word to the people running it. The team will stay though since we are committed to BOINC.

3/25/2007 9:26:48 AM

Kinguni

2087 posts

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(Canada)

McSummation wrote
I know I'm dense at times, but (without reading all the posts in those threads) I didn't understand what got you guys so upset with CPDN?

It's predictor that people are upset with, not CPDN.

3/25/2007 10:07:19 AM

Sat_Man

1334 posts

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(United States)

Another "Carsten Giese". Does that ring a bell?

It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues

3/26/2007 5:30:46 AM

skildude

199 posts

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(N/A)

I'm not sure what the basis is for not wanting to do that specific project. One guy cheats, as was done with seti a few years ago, now someone is talking cutting off their own nose.

I run rosetta and Seti. I noticed an incredible similarity between rosetta and predictor. You'd think that they'd just combine efforts. BTW rosetta doesnt have a screensaver in Linux either.

3/26/2007 6:48:51 AM

ScottMo

86 posts

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(United States) Modified By ScottMo on 3/26/2007 8:55:06 AM)

I don't think its a response to someone cheating that makes people not want to do Predictor, but rather a projects response to the cheating. Here, for example, the the forum moderator's (David Braun) response just a few days ago (24 March):

The Trojan issue: I have never said anywhere that I was not going to do anything about the Trojan user. What I said was that I was not going to do anything just because there was a post on the web. I don't visit any other projects forums and I don't know anybody at the other projects. There is a mailing list for projects that as far as I know all projects are subscribed to. There has been no mention of this until last night there. I believe it is inappropriate to post the name of a suspected cheater on the forums and this has brought out all sorts of childish behavior and accusations. If I had noticed something suspicious I would have either mailed the BOINC folks directly or sent mail asking other projects to check to see if the problem exists on there sites. If I posted something in the forums I would have not given a user name and just a description of the issue so that users are aware. After the thread appeared in our forums two other threads were created accusing people of cheating. I deleted those threads because the accusations were just plain wrong and I locked the Trojan thread asking the users not to create a new one.

I really don't think that this is any of your business, but that night I sent mail to the user in question asking for a response. Last night a lady, who I do not know sent me mail from claiming to be from CDPN. The return address was a hotmail account. I believe this person was who she said she was, but it did remind me of the weekly mail I get from ebay asking me to update the account I've never created. This illustrates the point that seems to be universally missed here. The web can give credibility to ANYBODY. A post and discussion on the projects mailing list by project administrators would give credibility to this issue. A forum post has no credibility. If you disagree with this you should look at some of the thing you say in the forums. I read them all.

I will not delete someones account just because an angry mob instructs me to.

Freedom of Speech issue: I think that schools have really failed here. Freedom of speech does not mean that you can say anything anywhere you want. It means that I can criticize the government, which I do often, and there is nothing that they can do about it. It does not mean that you can walk into my house to express your opinion, you can't use my phone, computer, wireless, or the P@H server without permission. That permission can be revoked at any time. If you invite me to your home and discover that I like to talk about the KKK, which most people might find offensive, you can ask me to leave. If I refuse to leave you can call the police and have me arrested. There is no freedom of speech issue here. When you are on someone's property and you are ask to leave you have to leave.

I did not think the Trojan thread was appropriate and it appeared to be spawning other similar discussions. I locked the thread. If the user community had any respect at all that would have been the end of it. You would have been free to take the discussion to one of the many other forums. There is no freedom of speech issue here.

Several users decided that they were going to ignore my request and reopened the thread. Again, it's not your server. It's mine. Just as a property manager or security guard can ask you to leave a shopping mall I can ask you to leave our server. I used the boinc 'banish' function which suspends the users ability to create threads for a week or so. Had these users just gone elsewhere that would have been the end of it. Instead they created new accounts and more threads, which I started blocking and deleting. At this point their behavior, does not matter if you agree with my deleting the posts or not, is criminal. The banish message states that you are not able to post until such and such date. This is like returning to the shopping mall after a guard has told you to leave. You have no right to return. One user boasted that he could change his ip address after I blocked it. His posts made it clear that he understood that he had been banished and was doing everything he could to get around it. This is criminal behavior. A number of you have stated that we are endorsing criminal behavior by not deleting the trojan users account. Then you behave like this. I think most adults would have simply left. An adult may have disagreed, and contacted my by email..which is at the bottom of all my posts along with my address and phone number. Thats not what the people here did.

If I go to your home and you ask me to leave I'm gone. I have no idea what you are thinking. Looking at this thread it looks as if the average P@H forum user is a 12 year old. One lady ask me in a post to delete her account, so I did. Then she sent me mail calling me an asshole and declared war. Our freinds who repeatedly created new accounts sent me mail explaining that they were going to create threads everywhere, which they did. Look at what people have written in this thread. Who are you people? What is wrong with you?

I was unsatisfied with my mechanic. I stopped going to him. I didn't harass him. I didn't threaten him. I didn't like the work he did so I found someone else. I didn't put a billboard up outside his shop calling him names. There are some sick people here.

This all started because I know how people act in the forums and I wanted to put out a fire before it got out of hand. I've been with predictor for a while now and I know how people can be in the forums but I had no idea that people have this much free time and so little maturity.

I got a mail from a team captain in Germany threatening to boycott the site if we continue to endorse criminal activity. It's ironic that one of his people is on the list of people who created multiple accounts to get around being banished. If this is how your people act then don't threaten, I demand that you disconnect for predictor.

The bottom line is this. If you do not like P@H go somewhere else. Please. There are a large number of projects to choose from and if you look hard enough I'm sure that you will find one you like.

And finally: To respond to all the personal attacks I see this mess as a reflection on the character of the eight or so users who's tantrum started all this. You were told you couldn't do something so you through a fit.

It appears that Predictor doesn't want to act on the basis of others claims and doesn't like its users demanding it act. Some may take it as tacit compliance with cheaters, others as the project refusing to give in to mob justice.

3/27/2007 12:01:07 AM

Fuzzy Duck

36 posts

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(France)

Wow,

This David Braun guy has an unusual perspective. It would seem that he considers the server his own property, whereas he is surely managing it on behalf of whatever organisation. He also does not seem to understand that DC is a two way street and admins have some duty towards their crunchers (although not a master/servant one).

Since crunchers are not paying customers, the only way they have to show their discontent is not to crunch the project. With his self serving attitude, I would anticipate that P@H is likely to see a considerable reduction is users.

3/27/2007 3:11:53 AM

paul

1013 posts

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(N/A)

I dunno, FD, I kindof like his attitude.

I imagine I'd be pretty ticked off if the same would happen to me.

Not being personally involved sure changes the way one looks at issues like this. It wasn't too long ago we were doing much the same, and we ended up moving here.

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

3/27/2007 6:04:53 PM

Crazee

224 posts

Website

Re: Predictor@home's response to rogue install
(N/A)

Attitude aside, this project has not been run very well. Information is slow in coming and if you check their results in the CASP trials they have not been nearly as successful as Rosetta. Now on his attitude, you would never see Dr. Baker at Rosetta address volunteers the way this guy has. Of course he would have never let this issue fester for as long without doing anything or addressing it in some manner before the forum wars got out of hand like they are at Predictor.

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