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 IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 
 1/16/2008 12:14:15 PM
User is offlineperryjay
323 posts
3rd




IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A)
Should turn into fun for all  

From the Setiusa website (for public distribution):

Over the last few days, there has been quite a number of discussions regarding the current BOINC credit model, as well as several proposals for new models to follow. While some of the discussion has taken place on the boinc_projects list, many of these discussions have occurred on IRC, multiple project/team/BOINC forums, or personal email. In the interest of time, clarity, and the ability to hear many views in a single arena, the staff of Riesel Sieve and I would like to extend an invitation to a BOINC Credit Community Discussion on Monday, January 21st. This discussion will be held via irc on irc.freenode.net, in the channel #boinc-credit.

In the interest of having the discussion at a time conducive to all, we will be hosting two discussions, at 2pm US Eastern Time and 8pm US Eastern Time. Please consider attending either or both. The logs from each will also be posted on the Riesel Sieve website shortly afterward, to allow those who could not attend the opportunity to review the transcript.

I think the only way that we can come to a true solution to the crediting situation is through a thorough discussion (or series of discussions) in a real-time format, not over email. Again, anyone from the BOINC community, including individual users, is invited to attend. Please consider redistributing through your own project or team channels to encourage attendance.
_________________
Bryan
Stats Administrator
BOINC Developer

Troublemaker
 1/16/2008 2:26:58 PM
User is offlineSat_Man
1346 posts
1st




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States)
Man this is going to be interesting. A very touchy topic. 

It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
 1/16/2008 3:06:53 PM
User is offlineXaak
1054 posts
1st




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States)
Sounds like the recipe for an IRC free-for-all.  It'd be funny if some of the people I know are gonna show up weren't so sad .
Gary
You can't fix dead.
 1/16/2008 7:28:56 PM
User is offlineskildude
213 posts
3rd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A)
OK I'll bite. Theres a problem with credits being awarded?
 1/16/2008 8:38:28 PM
User is offlineL0GiX
117 posts
Website
4th




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States)
I foresee lots of de-voicing and kick banning.
L0GiX StatsL0GiX Stats
 1/17/2008 10:14:50 AM
User is offlineJack Shaftoe
272 posts
3rd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States)
I like how they are inviting the community to comment, but I cringe when I think about what may happen on that IRC. Ugh.
"I think we're on the verge of a major climate shift. The government has to start making long term preparations now."
"Jack, all you have is a theory."
"Well then give me the mainframe and let me prove it!!!"

 1/17/2008 11:20:42 AM
User is offlineXaak
1054 posts
1st




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States) Modified By Xaak  on 1/17/2008 2:21:23 PM)

Nothing's really "broken", but there are always complaints that one project gives more or less credit than others, and someone's favorite project(s) aren't on the approved "Credit Whore Projects List" and they think it's unfair that their project(s) grant less credit than others.

It's a problem that can't really be solved, when you factor in projects like Rosetta and Cosmology grant credits using their own methods outside of BOINC, and seti offers optimized clients, and yet others have 64 bit clients.  Some projects have quorems that "average" granted credits in some fashion, and others are non quorem.  Let's not even get into the older BOINC clients which claim credit based on different methods than the new ones.

I wish them luck, though I might just stop by to take a peak at the mess that such a discussion is almost guaranteed to become .


Gary
You can't fix dead.
 1/17/2008 6:18:26 PM
User is offlineskildude
213 posts
3rd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A)
So a simple BOINC solution should be to base the credits on the amount of work completed over a specific time period. not to be overly vague. It looks like the one thing that seti/boinc didnt do when they started all this is to standardize credit/production values
 1/18/2008 3:37:22 AM
User is offlineXaak
1054 posts
1st




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States) Modified By Xaak  on 1/18/2008 6:38:54 AM)

Heh, every credit system that was built into boinc was simple and based on work completed over time.  First, it was benchmark based credit system that was based on something like 32 cobblestones granted for a reference wu on a reference machine.  Well, that didn't work well as people manipulated their benchmarks with either optimized boinc clients or by altering values in their xml files.  Now it's based on the gigaflop counter, and that doesn't really work as some science apps are less fp intensive than others, and yet other projects don't even use boinc's system.  Oh yeah, and you have older versions of the benchmark based boinc running along with the gflop based boinc and both can claim wildly different amounts of credits.

There's nothing simple about it, because there is no one size fits all.   Each project is different and does what it needs for the project, scoring systems are secondary.  It's like saying that baseball, football, basketball, hockey, lacross, and forumula 1 racing should come up with an equitable scoring system that fits them all so we can compare the performance of a team or athlete objectively between one sport and another. 

Can't be done now, will never be done, waste of time trying .


Gary
You can't fix dead.
 1/18/2008 4:38:34 AM
User is offlineskildude
213 posts
3rd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A)
which makes the RAC system a joke since nobody is doing their project the same
 1/18/2008 6:38:11 AM
User is offlineXaak
1054 posts
1st




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States)

Rac and credit both, when comparing 2 projects directly, have less meaning than the do within a project. However, the more projects a team or individual does, and the more evenly they're spread out, they can have more meaning across total boinc.  For example, if you crunch a low granting project and a high granting project, the overall boinc rac and credits average out to some extent.  So averaging an individual who crunches multiple projects across all of boinc (or team for that matter) makes the "competition" and stats to some extent balance out.

Before rosetta started to cause me problems,  I had most of my fleet there.  Sure, I was getting less credit than someone running seti or qmc, but so what?  I crunch rosetta because I liked the project goals, and it was well run, stable, and had excellent communication with the volunteer community.  When most of that stopped, I swiched some of my resources to QMC because I like the idea of working on quantum chemistry stuff, some over to WCG for the cancer related projects, and my 64 bit boxes to ABC until more projects start coming up with 64 bit clients.  I'm getting (factoring out upgrades), about 70% more rac on those projects then when I was doing rosetta, but if the rosetta project hadn't degraded itself, I'd still be there.

Remember, it's all in fun.  IMO, the playing field is level enough, but don't lose sight of the fact that hopefully we're helping science and research first and being credit whores second .

 


Gary
You can't fix dead.
 1/18/2008 7:14:57 AM
User is offlineCrystallize
594 posts
2nd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A) Modified By Crystallize  on 1/18/2008 10:20:40 AM)
Well, I only run Cosmology@home and Milkyway@home now since I quit S@H but both these projects have "fixed" credits.

...and I must say since they have a consistency validation system for the WUs, there is really no need for PC/CPU benchmarking.
It's a bit of an arbitrary overkill and totally unnecessary...

| >>> My RC-72 stats <<< | >>> My F@h stats <<< |

 1/18/2008 9:33:38 AM
User is offlineJack Shaftoe
272 posts
3rd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (United States) Modified By Jack Shaftoe  on 1/18/2008 12:35:01 PM)
 Xaak wrote
if the rosetta project hadn't degraded itself, I'd still be there.



Huh? What did they do? It's one of my favorite projects because they work so closely with their volunteers..

???

Sorry if this is off-topic.

P.S. Congrats on 10 mill Xaak!

"I think we're on the verge of a major climate shift. The government has to start making long term preparations now."
"Jack, all you have is a theory."
"Well then give me the mainframe and let me prove it!!!"

 1/18/2008 12:02:06 PM
User is offlineMcSummation
153 posts
4th




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A)
XaaK, I like the way you expressed that.
James aka McSummation
 1/18/2008 4:25:42 PM
User is offlinepaul
1024 posts
1st




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A) Modified By paul  on 1/19/2008 3:37:42 PM)
  Here's a link, I see quite a few idling in the channel already.

 irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/boinc-credit 

From what I gather talking to some people over at SetiUSA, there seems to be some misunderstanding on QMC credit system, and an updated method of BOINC credit distributation that Dr. Anderson is proposing, but Eric K. seems to be against. Also, I really don't know how formal this chat session is going to be, about all I can tell is a few devs from YoYo, TSP, and maybe a couple others may attend, along with concerned users.

Hardly a representative group of people, I would think someone from Berkeley in attendance with some straight info would help.

Co-owner, the Group of 10 100 200 300
 1/19/2008 12:46:14 PM
User is offlineperryjay
323 posts
3rd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A)
   
 paul wrote
  Here's a link, I see quite a few idling in the channel already.

 irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/boinc-credit 

From what I gather talking to some people over at SetiUSA, there seems to be some misunderstanding on QMC credit system, and an updated method of BOINC credit distributation that Dr. Anderson is proposing, but Eric K. seems to be against. Also, I really don't know how formal this chat session is going to be, about all I can tell is a few devs from YoYo, TSP, and maybe a couple others may attend, along with concerned users.

Hardly a representative group of people, I would think someone from Berkeley in attendance with some straight info would help.



Hey Paul, thanks for making it a link.

Troublemaker
 1/21/2008 8:58:05 AM
User is offlineperryjay
323 posts
3rd




Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A)
    T-1 hour  till the start of round 0ne.  [url]irc://irc.freenode.net/boinc-credit[/url]  Should be a fun free for all.

Troublemaker
 1/23/2008 3:45:44 AM
User is offlineanonymous
0 posts


Re: IRC discussion of BOINC credits
 (N/A) Modified By anonymous  on 1/23/2008 6:47:19 AM)

Later that day... (from #team_starfire)

[15:25] <@perryjay> If anyone is interested, this is the log of round one..  http://boinc.rieselsieve.com/credit_discussion_2pm.php

[15:58] <@perryjay> Here's a quick summary of what was discussed at the first round.. http://www.rieselsieve.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12126

edit: Note that times in this post are EST.  Chat started at 1400 EST.  I can't vouch for times in the links.

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