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my head hurts.....

my head hurts.... using an HTPC

4/23/2008 4:38:47 AM

paul

1013 posts

my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A)

After finishing up my HT last year, my DVD recorder's drive went out, will cost too much to fix for what it's worth. Samsung DVD-R155, new drive $80-90. So I've always had it in the back of my head to build an htpc, mostly to play dvd's either from disc or from the Tb file server in the office where I have quite a few movies. I have a thread here- The Pocket Rocket Project detailing the build.

To begin with, let me stress that my wife needs to operate the HT as it is right now, so my intent is not to have a full blown HTPC, but to complement the existing install which consists of-

Mitsu WD-73831 73" DLP
DirecTV HR20-700
Yamaha RX-V659
Cambridge Soundworks Ambience 82 in walls
Cambridge Soundworks Center Channel 2
Energy 4" rears
SVS PB12-NSD subwoofer

I've struggled through setting up most everything so wife can operate the TV/dvr/receiver very easily through the DirecTV remote. Which is the way it should be... So this won't change, as she's very comfy with her dvr, and it works surprisingly simply with one remote. I do need to change around the audio input to go straight from the DVR to receiver so she can leave an XM station on without the TV being on.

So to the point of this post. I've installed XP and PowerDVD, so it's ready to go. I've tried to read up on this, but quickly get frustrated, since most guides/discussions seem to be centered on a complete DVR control system, not just a basic player/recorder. I don't even know if the onboard video is enough to do what I want.

I haven't taken the plunge on Blu-ray yet, and probably won't till players come down a bit more. What I do have is a collection of DVD's, CD's and mp3's I'd like to play, either on disc or on a file server, and have them upconverted. Pretty sure the Mitsu will do the upconverting, need to see how to do that.

So I guess the question is is the onboard video enough to do what I need, and also unsure about sound issues. I have no complaints atm with spdif out and letting the Yamaha decode whatever signal it gets. I have it setup on the bench with a couple lcds, trying to get it going. Appreciate any help, I'm off for some Ibuprofen...

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

4/23/2008 6:01:02 AM

Jack Shaftoe

262 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(United States) Modified By Jack Shaftoe on 4/23/2008 8:07:29 AM)

paul wrote
So to the point of this post. I've installed XP and PowerDVD, so it's ready to go. I've tried to read up on this, but quickly get frustrated, since most guides/discussions seem to be centered on a complete DVR control system, not just a basic player/recorder. I don't even know if the onboard video is enough to do what I want.

Hi Paul, in my last apt I set up an HTPC to use with a HD Projector one of my roommates bought. We used VLC Media Player for playback from the hard drive and I believe from DVD's too.

Audio out was s/pdif to my Sony DA2ES, similar to what you are doing.

I used a EVGA 256-P2-N615-TX GeForce 7600GT as my video card, it worked great. I bought that based on a recommendation from one of my roommates. I am not sure if onboard video will work as well, but can't confirm this. For our projector we had to use some funky screen resolutions to get the widescreen format and aspect ratios nailed in. The ASUS P5LD2-VM I was using at the time had built in video, but did not support the resolutions we ended up finalizing on. We did some reading on the AVS Forums that helped us identify the optimum settings for the video card we were using. If you decide to get a video card to use, I recommend browsing the AVS Forums to find something that others have recommended. Most of the time you will find complete recommended setup there too.

The biggest pain was using keyboard/mouse to start playback of anything. Since this was in the living room, we didn't like leaving them out all the time. One of my friends uses something called a "gyration" mouse that lets you just wave it around in the air to move the pointer. It works pretty well, but the mouse is friggin expensive (about $100 at the time) so we never got one.

When I moved out, I decided not to go the HTPC route in my new apartment since the projector got left behind and it got converted into a cruncher.

Hope this is helpful.

"I think we're on the verge of a major climate shift. The government has to start making long term preparations now."
"Jack, all you have is a theory."
"Well then give me the mainframe and let me prove it!!!"

4/23/2008 7:06:35 AM

paul

1013 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A)

Thanks for the reply. I've been having a good conversation with Camelot_One in IRC, since he has been through many setups similar. More on that later.

Seems like I will have the same issue as you, controlling the thing. I thought I could remote in from my laptop, which is in front of the couch, but that may have issues as well. That would be ideal, since I'm always lounging on the couch in ffront of the laptop, with the TV on the left side of my vision. here's a pic from the view I have watching TV, you'll see it would be ideal if I could remote in to control the HTPC-

laptop tv 009sm.jpg

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

4/23/2008 8:49:43 AM

paul

1013 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A)

Here's the conversation I had with Scott, really helped me get a bigger picture as to what does what-

[7:57am] <@Camelot_Laptop> I've read over both threads, the one part I'm still stuck on is that you need/want to use it as a recorder. Or do you?
[7:58am] <@paulbot> well, sortof. wife thinks she wants one, we've never really used on on the HT though. I mean, she has the DVR
[7:58am] <@paulbot> and for now, not much concerned about it
[7:59am] <@paulbot> that would take a tv tuner card, right?
[8:00am] <@Camelot_Laptop> for ease of use, yes. Though in your case you don't actually need the tuner, a video line input would do the job, but unless you just happen to buy a video card with VIVO, there isn't much point to it
[8:01am] <@Camelot_Laptop> I've gone around and around with these things, the sticking point here has always been the wife friendly factor
[8:01am] <@paulbot> yeah
[8:01am] <@Camelot_Laptop> and the concusion I've come to is that HTPC just isn't the way to go
[8:01am] <@paulbot> hehe
[8:01am] <@Camelot_Laptop> I picked up a liteon DVD player/recorder from Geeks.com for $49, becky loves it.
[8:02am] <@Camelot_Laptop> and second only to the DTV HD DVR, the DLink media player is her favorite tech toy
[8:02am] <@paulbot> thought so. so I'll be the one to play movies i guess
[8:02am] <@Camelot_Laptop> combined the two would run you about $300, maybe less
[8:03am] <@paulbot> well, see, if Laurie has to go any further than using the dtv remote, it ain't gonna happen
[8:03am] <@Camelot_Laptop> well first you need to figure out the remote setup. I tried several different media player apps on the HTPC, but most require a keyboard/mouse combo, and no matter how simple I made it, becky always hated it
[8:03am] <@Camelot_Laptop> yeah and you won't get far with the DTV remote controlling any of the PC stuff. Atleast I didn't, couldn't find a remote code for any of the IR receivers
[8:04am] <@paulbot> ok, i'm always in the living room on the laptop. i thought i would just vnc into it and play what i wanted
[8:04am] <@Camelot_Laptop> to answer your question about the onboard video, the answer is yes and no
[8:05am] <@Camelot_Laptop> the Intel chip will output just fine, but it's not the greatest for upconverting.
[8:06am] <@paulbot> i think my TV will upconvert, meant to check that out last night
[8:06am] <@Camelot_Laptop> any of the nVidia 8x series cards with PureVideo or whatever they are calling it do a pretty good job - as they have that dedicated channel just for that
[8:06am] <@Camelot_Laptop> your TV will convert, but don't confuse it with true (and good looking) upconversion
[8:06am] <@paulbot> ahh, ok
[8:06am] <@Camelot_Laptop> the Intel will do it, and probably much better than the TV
[8:06am] <@Camelot_Laptop> just not quite as good as the nvidia cards
[8:07am] <@paulbot> i have an 8400GS here
[8:07am] <@Camelot_Laptop> There are several different HTPC apps you can run that make for pretty and simple interfaces, but almost all of them lag and have issues running over a terminal connection
[8:08am] <@paulbot> well i'll check the AVS forums on the Mitsu Diamondmax
[8:08am] <@paulbot> and upconverting
[8:08am] <@Camelot_Laptop> I'm not aware of any TV on the market that can upconvert as well as a power house PC can
[8:09am] <@Camelot_Laptop> it just boils down to raw power = better quality
[8:09am] <@paulbot> see, this is the stuff i need to know
[8:09am] <@Camelot_Laptop> those $59 upconverting DVD players from walmart upconvert,but they don't do it as well as the HD-DVD/Blueray players with faster chips in them
[8:10am] <@Camelot_Laptop> for an idea, take a low res picture, resize it with Paint. Then resize it with Photoshop. Both end up the same larger resolution, but they definitely don't look the same
[8:11am] <@paulbot> gotcha
[8:11am] <@Camelot_Laptop> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882103603&Tpk=DSM-520
[8:11am] <@paulbot> in my situation, this is my view most every evening laying on the couch- http://members.cox.net/pbroussard/pictures/laptop%20tv%20009sm.jpg
[8:12am] <@paulbot> so with the lappy in front of me on a caddy, remote in would be ideal
[8:13am] <@Camelot_Laptop> and would you be playing DVDs from it, or playing avi/mpg?
[8:14am] <@paulbot> from the laptop?
[8:14am] <@Camelot_Laptop> the HTPC
[8:14am] <@paulbot> yes to all from htpc
[8:14am] <@Camelot_Laptop> Windows Media Center or normal XP?
[8:14am] <@paulbot> dvd player, movies from file server, mps's
[8:15am] <@paulbot> XP
[8:15am] <@paulbot> although i could use MCE
[8:15am] <@paulbot> i hate it though
[8:15am] <@paulbot> heh
[8:15am] <@paulbot> have it on the laptop
[8:15am] <@Camelot_Laptop> MCE might make it easier, I've setup several of them with the MyMovies plugin, and people like it a lot.
[8:16am] <@Camelot_Laptop> but the MCE app itslf won't run over a remote connection, so you'd want a wireless keyboard attached
[8:16am] <@paulbot> dang
[8:16am] <@paulbot> i don't need anymore crap laying around
[8:16am] <@Camelot_Laptop> Well there is always good old windows media player
[8:17am] <@Camelot_Laptop> just need the DVD playback pluggin, but that would be installed with any of the PowerDVD/CyberDVD apps
[8:18am] <@Camelot_Laptop> getting the output resolution right would probably be the most difficult part, have you hooked this rig up to the TV yet?
[8:19am] <@paulbot> no, just a couple lcd's here in the office
[8:20am] <@paulbot> powerdvd is crashing, the intel gpu and the overclock probably isn't going to play nice
[8:20am] <@Camelot_Laptop> I haven't hooked mine up, but a lot of the onboards have issues running the correct resolution over a digital TV connection
[8:20am] <@Camelot_Laptop> but maybe not, I haven't tried one that had an actuall HDMI output, just a DVI to HDMI adapter
[8:20am] <@Camelot_Laptop> I don't know why that would cause a problem
[8:21am] <@Camelot_Laptop> is it crashing when you are logged into the PC local, or just over the VNC?
[8:21am] <@paulbot> just something i read. even though it's running locked pcie bus
[8:21am] <@paulbot> crashing local
[8:22am] <@Camelot_Laptop> As long as the overclock is stable, I don't see why the CPU or overclock would cause that
[8:22am] <@Camelot_Laptop> possibly a bad copy/install/driver conflict?
[8:22am] <@Camelot_Laptop> do you get popper audio from the rig?
[8:23am] <@Camelot_Laptop> when playing back mp3 and such?
[8:23am] <@paulbot> me either, but have read it several times, but, i may have it confused with older onboard boards
[8:23am] <@paulbot> have yet to hook up speakers. just got the overclock done, and am starting with the media
[8:23am] <@Camelot_Laptop> I think it's CyberDVD that I use, but I'd have to check
[8:23am] <@Camelot_Laptop> check the audio, a lot of the DVD players won't run right if the audio drivers aren't right
[8:24am] <@Camelot_Laptop> and Asus has been REALLY bad about audio drivers lately
[8:24am] <@Camelot_Laptop> the last 6 versions for my primary rig have all had one issue or another
[8:24am] <@paulbot> ahh. i did have an audio driver issue, but just solved this AM
[8:24am] <@paulbot> well got it to load
[8:24am] <@paulbot> heh
[8:25am] <@Camelot_Laptop> listen to an MP3, see if the audio output volume varies. THats the issue with my pimary board drivers, its like someone is turning the volume up and down constantly
[8:29am] <@paulbot> hmm, will have to get a set of speakers from somewhere
[8:30am] <@paulbot> i know i have some at the warehouse
[8:30am] <@Camelot_Laptop> well it's not so easy, you need to test the digital out, not just the analog.
[8:31am] <@Camelot_Laptop> at least if you are going to hook it up to your stereo receiver via the digital out, which I highly recommend
[8:32am] <@paulbot> yes, will be using digital out
[8:33am] <@Camelot_Laptop> on mine, issues with analog out in one driver set don't show up with the digital, and in a different version it the digital that has the problem
[8:51am] <@paulbot> dammit, crashed again
[8:51am] <@paulbot> you mind if I post all this in that thread I started?
[8:52am] <@paulbot> some good info maybe others could use
[9:06am] <@Camelot_Laptop> not at all
[9:06am] <@Camelot_Laptop> though I'm not sure it's been much help
[9:06am] <@paulbot> it's been a great help
[9:07am] <@paulbot> my biggest problem is reading threads doesn't always help me deduce what i need until I get some big picture thing in my head
[9:10am] <@Camelot_Laptop> yeah and most of the AVS threads are trying to accomplish far more than you need
[9:10am] <@paulbot> tell me about it

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

4/23/2008 11:06:26 AM

Jack Shaftoe

262 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(United States) Modified By Jack Shaftoe on 4/23/2008 1:10:32 PM)

Definitely check out VLC, Paul. It's much more functional than WMP, and wouldn't surprise me if it kicked the pants off Power DVD. Lots of controls over audio and video playback.

Regarding an easy way to control the system, I haven't found one. When you go the HTPC route, I feel that you are sacrificing some useability for functionality and quality (at this point in time). Hopefully more toys show up on the market to make it better.

P.S. that tv looks SWEET!

4/23/2008 12:49:57 PM

paul

1013 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A) Modified By paul on 4/23/2008 2:50:54 PM)

Yeah, my wife decided to get that TV, after I gave up on trying to use a projector as a main TV. It's definitely a huge step up in picture quality, but lost a lot of screen size. That wall used to hold a 105" screen... She suprised me when she went on her own to a local high end shop, talked to them and picked it out. She had paid off her car, and didn't mind spending the money for a good TV.

As I was reading the AVS forums, I saw several references to VLC being one of the media players not to use, since it does little if any upconverting. Before our upconverting DVD recorder broke, the upconverted picture was very good looking, so much so that our backup DVD player without upconverting lokks terrible in comparison.

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

4/23/2008 1:15:32 PM

Jack Shaftoe

262 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(United States) Modified By Jack Shaftoe on 4/23/2008 3:28:53 PM)

paul wrote
As I was reading the AVS forums, I saw several references to VLC being one of the media players not to use, since it does little if any upconverting. Before our upconverting DVD recorder broke, the upconverted picture was very good looking, so much so that our backup DVD player without upconverting lokks terrible in comparison.

Really? Interesting. What do they suggest? I guess I've fallen behind on the technology...

Was the projector you had HD?

4/23/2008 4:46:44 PM

Camelot One

97 posts

Website

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A)

No, he was using my old X3, which is a 1024x768 (4:3) Great back in the day, but not up to todays standards. And it did absolutely no upconverting on it's own.

Paul I have a setup manual (my own short hand on setting an HTPC up) on one of my backup drives that I'll try to find tomorrow. I'm reasonably sure I was using a combination of a player with the ffdshow filter to do the upconverting. That would take care of the playback, but still doesn't address the wife-unfriendly control. I haven't used VNC for quite awhile, but the biggest issue you are going to run into is that you need something that can pass the DX/DirecShow video to your controlling screen, which most of the remote apps don't do. LogMeIn does. (I've even loaded Crysis over it - all be it at VERY low frame rate)

I can't stress enough the DLink media player. I like it, Becky loves it. It does the upconverting, plays everything, and the control from the remote is as easy as the HR20 your wife is used to. I'm still waiting for the initial launch bugs to be worked out of their new DSM-750, but the 520 I have now has been great. Once they get the bugs worked out the 750 should be every bit as good, but with the added option of HD playback. (h.264 support)

I also have a Buffalo Link Theater upstairs that has the upconverting DVD player built in, though I don't think the other trade off's are worth it. Still a nice unit, just not as polished as the DLink. (and they've stopped working on new firmware for it, while the DLink is still getting updates)

4/23/2008 7:12:12 PM

paul

1013 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A) Modified By paul on 4/23/2008 9:34:12 PM)

Ahh, now I'm getting it. was mistakenly assuming i could run split screens with the htpc, desktop on one, dvd app on another, vnc into desktop to run the app... doesn't sound like it will work the way I invisioned it. The media player you mentioned sure sounds like the ticket, then.

Now what to do with the Pocket Rocket....

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

4/24/2008 6:41:10 PM

paul

1013 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A) Modified By paul on 4/24/2008 9:13:05 PM)

Ok, started checking out the DLink media player. I see it has no dvd player, seems like that would be a good match for a unit like that, to have a builtin DVD player. My hope was to consolidate some of this stuff, looks like I'll still have to deal with the HR20, dvd player and now a Media player....

While we are on the subject, I have 2 of the DTV R32 remotes, set up to turn the TV on/off, and receiver volume. I guess it's a feature of the remote, when I press TV power off, it powers down the TV and the HR20, which I'd rather not. Is the only way to get the R32 remote to turn just the TV off, is to slide the function button to TV, then use the TV Poer off button? When I say I try and get the controls down as simple as I can, I really need it. I guess Laurie is scared of technology, she has a hard time accepting the fact that HD TV just isn't going to be as simple as the old days. But we're very close to being as simple as it can get for normal TV viewing.

I did switch inputs to the receiver to take the digital signal from the DVR instead of the TV, so she can listen to an XM station without burning 200 watts and lamp life on the TV. So the powering off the TV bit is slightly annoying. Probably very minor concern considering the added layer of complexity I'm fixing to add.

Oh, one more question, I have a fairy large difference in audio level when tuning in an OTA signal through the HR20, it's fairly low on all channels. Is this fairly typical?

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

4/25/2008 8:58:13 AM

azor

53 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(United States)

I just have my laptop ready to hookup to my LCD tv via a vga to vga cable and plug the tv into the headphone jack for sound :)

It's like having a 42" monitor to do my bidding...

4/25/2008 3:27:57 PM

Camelot One

97 posts

Website

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A)

Yeah the 520 doesn't have a DVD player, thats why I mentioned the Buffalo Link Theater. (which does) But it doesn't have HDMI out, and thanks to HDCP that means no upconverting retail DVDs. (you can rip them to decrypted first, but if you go that far you might as well just save it as an xvid on your host PC)

I'd do the DLink + one of those LiteOn DVD player/recorders Geeks has on sale. I think the 1080 upconverting version was $50 or so. And you can feed it through the HR20's svideo out (the dual output resolution was the reason I upgraded)

I know of no way to not turn off the receiver with the TV power button, other than sliding the selector over to TV first. But in the normal DTV mode, you can use the TV Off button to turn both off, then hit the PWR button to turn just the receiver back on, without needing to move the selector switch.

I gave up on OTA here, the austin stations p*ss me off with their brown sidebar commercials, and sidebar'ed SD programming 21 hours a day. I managed to get myself a network waiver, so I'm pulling the NYC feeds over satellite. But I do remember there was a big difference in the audio output between OTA and Sat, possibly based on the format they are broadcasting in.

4/29/2008 8:08:25 PM

paul

1013 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A)

While I had the htpc built, I figured I might as well install it and see how it did. I developed cellulitis in my leg 10 days ago, so I've been kindof out of it, recovering.

You're right about Asus's drivers for the Realtek audio, I had to go to Realtek's site and get the latest drivers for PowerDVD to stop rebooting the htpc. This evening I wired it and got a few kinks out, I'm at least to XP desktop now, albeit at 1280x720 resolution. Don't know why the Mitsu won't pick up the hdmi signal at 1920x1200, though. At least I got this far, though...

Co-owner, the Group of 10 ~~100~~ ~~200~~ 300

4/29/2008 9:40:35 PM

Kinguni

2085 posts

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(Canada)

Needs more cowbell.

4/30/2008 5:41:54 AM

Camelot One

97 posts

Website

Re: my head hurts.... using an HTPC
(N/A)

I don't know what options the onboard has, but you might check to see if it has an option for Interlaced output at 1920x1080. As strange as it sounds, a LOT of TVs - more so in the rear projection group, DISPLAY 1080p but don't ACCEPT a 1080p signal. It's just a thought, might not be your issue at all.

Also make sure the computer is seeing the "display" as a TV and not as a Generic PNP monitor. This again is a problem some, but not all TV's have - it involves the overscan compensation. Normally if that is the problem the image on the screen is either too large or too small, but in some cases it causes the TV to not display it at all.

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